Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 22:28:58 -0400
From: Jeff 
Message-ID: <359C41EA.15413D0A@tcimet.net>
Subject: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: "positive-futures@igc.apc.org" 

-Jeff

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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:34:33 -0400
From: "scott bigham" 
Message-Id: <19980703213401.KVL29455@quantex>
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: "Jeff" , 

Sincerely, Ireland

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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:43:30 -0400
From: Mike Warren 
In-Reply-To: <359C41EA.15413D0A@tcimet.net>
Message-Id: 
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: "positive-futures@igc.apc.org" 

At 10:28 PM -0400 7/2/1998, Jeff wrote:
>best deals on food, tabulating all my expenditures, etc.  As my paid
>employment already takes 45 - 50 hours out of my week, my frugal
>activities feel much like a second job.  My  experience feels quite
>contrary to the joy that simple living is supposed to bring.  Thoughts?

There are two grocery stores near us (five miles away). They both send fliers to our mailbox but I rarely look at them -- most of the sale items are for things I would never buy (processed food, junk food, paper goods, etc.). Even so, their regular prices can vary considerably. Rather than waste time and energy looking for the best deals, I'll shop at one this week and at the other the next. If some thing seems high, I'll do without altogether or wait until the next week.

Instead of shopping for the best price under pressure, I add things to the shopping list before they're really needed. When I open the last bar of soap, for example, I put soap on the list. I haven't run out so I can afford to wait for a good price. This way shopping doesn't seem so urgent. Also, I don't believe in buying lots of a thing just because it's on sale, all that merchandize in the house would depress me.

Like you, I believe in keeping a record of expenditures. I save the receipts and put them next to my breakfast place. The following morning I enter the amounts in my book when I record other farm info (high and low temperatures, egg production, diary). Delaying the accounting until the next morning helps me get in the spirit of the coming work day instead of piling on one more chore in the evening.

---
Mike Warren               
Sine Nomine Farm          
Tobaccoville, NC

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Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 06:26:48 -0400
From: Jeff 
Message-ID: <35A0A668.3290CDD6@tcimet.net>
Subject: re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: "positive-futures@igc.apc.org" 

Mike Warren wrote:                (snip)

> I would categorize most frugal savings *chores* as penny wise and
> pound foolish.  You have to weigh the cost of your time and the energy
> you expend against the savings at the cash register.

Mike: I think you've quite nicely hit on the crux of the matter. YMOYL discusses at the length the costs of paid employment in "life energy", but the same costs in performing tasks to save $ to reach Financial Independence is never mentioned. The assumption almost seems to be that all activity towards saving $ will be enjoyable. Don't get me wrong, I believe in the principles of YMOYL, but I'm discovering there are some unstated assumptions that I need to carefully examine when trying to incorporate YMOYL into my life style. I would take your suggestion one step further and say that it's necessary to balance any $ savings with the negative impact that too much of this $ saving drudgery could have on one's satisfaction with their life style. I'm currently struggling to find that balance. I'd be interested in hearing from others how they've found this balance in their lives.

-Jeff

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Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 07:36:34 -0700
From: Diane Fitzsimmons 
Message-ID: <35A0E0F2.3619@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.org

This is a dilemma I have often pondered: what is always simple is not frugal, and vice versa.

Obviously, if you're spending a lot of gas to make these trips to pick up cheap shampoo at the Wal-mart across town, then that's not frugal either. So, the first thing you must do is consolidate your trips -- which I bet you already know.

That became the rub for me. I found I was spending virtually my entire Saturday going from one place to another. It became an unpleasant marathon, especially since I had three kids along (my husband works Saturdays). Many times, I found the special item that I came to get -- the extra cheap detergent -- was out. Yes, I can get a raincheck, but it means another trip back.

Eventually I decided that more trips=more money -- both in gas and purchases! I started just shopping the neighborhood store -- locally owned and unique (for our area) because it has a huge "health food store" section. Some things are cheaper here, some aren't. I also began to feel strongly that it is better to pay more* up front for a locally produced or less environmentally damaging item. And I found I bought LESS because I was confronted with fewer possibilities (the old kid in the candy store syndrome) at one store than several. At home, I learned to make do and substitute when I didn't have that handy dandy spice (or whatever); I also had more time to prepare foods from scratch (less need for time-saving, more expensive food "kits.").

Another thing I eventually did was to buy better quality food because our daily family meals is a major socializing time for us. Yes, I can buy 5-for-a-dollar mac and cheese mixes; they're frugal and edible but NOT enjoyable. I can make homemade mac and cheese, which costs considerably more, and everyone loves it. Sad to say, but when you try to live simply, eating well is a pleasure. I don't mean junk food, but good, healthy cooking. For instance, good salads aren't all that cheap, and the ingredients are perishable enough that it can mean extra trips to the store.

That is what works for me and the moral compromise that I finally worked out. I bet you're about at the same place, but at least you know you're not alone.

Thanks, Diane

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At 17:16 6/07/98 -0400, Jeff wrote:

*This idea of deliberating narrowing your choices at a more expensive store leading to a greater frugality is fascinating. It's a very counter-intuitive idea, but I could see how it would work.

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Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 19:00:29 -0700
From: John Gear 
In-Reply-To: <359C41EA.15413D0A@tcimet.net>
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980705190029.007cd8c0@mail.pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living

At 22:28 7/2/98 -0400, jeff wrote:
>I've been trying to implement various frugal living practices in my life
>for the past several years.  Lately I've been struggling with how much
>time these various money saving activities take and how little enjoyment
>I derive from them.  I'm excited by the concepts of simple living, but
>much of the actual leg work seems like drudgery.  I'm talking about
>things like shopping at several grocery stores each week to find the
>best deals on food, tabulating all my expenditures, etc.  As my paid
>employment already takes 45 - 50 hours out of my week, my frugal
>activities feel much like a second job.  My  experience feels quite
>contrary to the joy that simple living is supposed to bring.  Thoughts?

What's *hard* on the other hand is living SUSTAINABLY--that is, in a way that can be continued indefinitely. It definitely brings a real satisfaction, but not a superficial one or one that is easily attained.

But it's far more meaningful than the easily available emotions.

John

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Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:30:14 -0400
From: "M. Brass /K. Bracken" 
Message-ID: <35A0FB95.EA0F0686@sprynet.com>
References: <35A0A668.3290CDD6@tcimet.net>
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: Jeff 

Jeff Fleming wrote:
>   I would take your suggestion one step further and say that it's 
>necessary to balance any $ savings with the negative impact that too 
>much of this $ saving drudgery could have on one's satisfaction with 
>their life style.  I'm currently struggling to find that balance.  I'd 
>be interested in hearing from others how they've found this balance in 
>their lives.

I and my partner have found that the process of simplicity is taken in steps. It takes time for the benefits of "savings drudgery" to become apparent and to cease being a drudgery, particularly since US culture has loaded simplicity and frugality with negative connotations. I would be curious to hear whether this is true of other cultures.

Peace,

Matthew

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Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 11:58:59 -0700
From: Diane Fitzsimmons  
Message-ID: <35A11E72.57CF@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.org

Regarding what is drudgery: For me, it's detail cleaning -- bathrooms, wallboard, dusting, stovetops, etc. So, how does this relate to frugality/simplicity? I don't use the fancy cleaners, preferring to use the homemade recipes (cheaper and better for the environment). That means I get to use two other cleaning ingredients instead: elbow grease and more time. Believe me, my house will never make it into the pages of Better Homes and Gardens!

As for whether the fast-lane lifestyle is "simple" (fast food, dry cleaners, high-paying job) ... When I used to live that way, it never FELT simple. I felt like I was rushing everywhere, with a million things on my to-do list. To me, "simple living" truly seems "simpler" than finding someone else to do my cooking and cleaning and day care and etc.

Thanks, Diane

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At 17:18 6/07/98 -0400, Jeff wrote:

-Jeff

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Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:59:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: gthomas@acad.suffolk.edu
In-Reply-To: <359C41EA.15413D0A@tcimet.net>
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: Jeff 

This list has discussed this before. . .and probably will again. I've also been implementing frugal living practices over the past several years (since 1992) and it does sometimes feel an awful lot like drudgery and inconvenience -- at least on top of a full-time job. I don't know if you've followed YMOYL, but there is the section where you make a wall chart of outgo, income and capital(?). Anyway, it helps to keep that because it's such a quantitative sign of progress (presumably). And it helps to celebrate all the little triumphs, too.
"$24 saved on groceries!! Hurray!" "Paid that damn credit card off -- brilliant!" Etc.

I've also found that I've made decisions about things like buying organic -- I do it -- and that has limited the running to different stores inconvenience.

This is only practical, of course, if you are in a position not to have to squeeze every last penny, or if you're willing to wait longer to save sufficient capital. I think someone on this list had a good suggestion during our last discussion of this. She recommended implementing one or two frugal "rules" at a time. For example, just concentrating on the food bill, or the credit cards, or whatever. And not trying to do everything frugal in every aspect of your life all at once. Once the habits are established for, say the food bill, then work on clothing, or cheaper banking, or whatever. It's okay to let certain things slide until you can focus on them if the inconvenience while you're working is too great.

Note: the "you" above is universal, not specific.

Glynys
Boston

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Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:26:26 -0400
From: Valerie_Flocco@shsl.com
Message-ID: <00087219.1463@shsl.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.org

I guess the way I view it, simple living doesn't necessarily have to mean frugal living -- not to the extent of the "Your money or your life" concepts. I agree that sometimes it's so time-costly, that it's no longer "simple." For me, simple living is about not wanting as much to begin with, knowing I don't need a lot of "stuff" and finding joy in the "simpler" (for lack of a better word!) things in my life.

But I think part of that is prioritizing - would you rather spend your entire Saturday running to 5 different stores to spend $20 less on all your groceries, for example, or would you rather be spending time with your family, friends, animals, garden, etc. If that $20 is really crucial for whatever reason, then so it is, but if not, then I say the heck with it. If I'm a slave to frugal living to the point that I'm no longer enjoying it, then it's not simple or frugal anymore -- just draining. Life's too short and each day is too precious.

Just my two cents on things.

Love and peace
valerie

valerie_flocco@shsl.com

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Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 17:10:56 -0400
From: Jeff 
Message-ID: <35A13D60.4B41B74@tcimet.net>
References: <199807061518.LAA15914@cpcug.org>
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: "positive-futures@igc.apc.org" 

Carol Bruce wrote: 
>Can I ask what things you are thinking of as "drudgery?" ...

-Jeff

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Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 16:58:25 -0400
From: Carol Bruce 
In-Reply-To: <35A11E72.57CF@ou.edu>
Message-Id: <199807062059.QAA11037@cpcug.org>
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.org

Diane wrote:
>As for whether the fast-lane lifestyle is "simple" (fast food, dry 
>cleaners, high-paying job) ... When I used to live that way, it never 
>FELT simple.  I felt like I was rushing everywhere, with a million 
>things on my to-do list.  To me, "simple living" truly seems "simpler" 
>than finding someone else to do my cooking and cleaning and day care and 
>etc.

How can a lifestyle be simpler if it leaves people so anxiety-ridden? As for working (and paying taxes and other costs) so that I can pay someone else to clean my house....I decided I'd rather have some dust and do it myself, when I get around to it....

Carol Bruce

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Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 21:29:53 -0400
From: Carol Bruce 
In-Reply-To: <35A13D60.4B41B74@tcimet.net>
Message-Id: <199807070130.VAA00862@cpcug.org>
References: <199807061518.LAA15914@cpcug.org>
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.apc.org

I wrote: 

Mike and Jeff, or anyone else: 
Can I ask what things you are thinking of as "drudgery?" I got the four
grocery stores example--I don't do that myself, since I shop exclusively
at the local food co-op and farmers' market.
----------
Jeff replied:

Carol - Lawn care, auto repair, tracking expenses, home repair, checking
several stores for the best price are a few of my more drudgerous
things...(sung to the tune of  THESE ARE A FEW OF MY FAVORITE THINGS). 
----------

Well, we didn't care much for lawn care, either, so we got rid of most of the lawn. We have wild/native plants growing now with mulched paths. Main work is periodically hauling in more mulch from the free county mulch pickup center about a mile from our house. So think about replacing your lawn with something that doesn't need mowing--preferably not concrete!

Auto repair--well, I decided a while back, based on the performance of my car, that it was better to pay dealer rip-off prices and get the factory-recommended services. Yes, it costs more than the shop on the corner, but I also have never (knock on wood) had *any* problems with my cars, so I think it's been worth it.

We also decided to reduce our mileage by 10% a year (I think our goal this year is about 8000 miles, but I'd have to check). That will reduce the frequency/need for some maintenance.

Tracking expenses--my husband's an ex-accountant--talk about anal! But I keep a daily journal, and write down expenses in that, then transfer to Quicken. We've almost stopped using our credit cards, so that makes life easier on two counts--we spend less money, and there's one less bill to pay!

My least favorite drudgery things: commuting to work, buying professional clothes, house-cleaning.

I stopped working full-time, and when I do work (I work as a computer trainer one or two days a week), I finish work earlier than most people (4pm) so I beat most of the traffic. This also cut my need for professional clothes--I teach at different places, so I can use the same small wardrobe over and over!

House-cleaning--well, my husband is quitting his full-time job to go freelance like me (he's into networking and computer hardware). So the two of us will share house cleaning duties. We're fixing up our house so we can sell it and move into a condo! Then we'll save loads of money and have less house to clean and no lawn at all. Hooray!

Carol Bruce

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Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 18:18:42 -0600
From: cheryl 
Message-ID: <35A16961.3C5038B9@prodigy.net>
References: 
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living

The other day the store had Electrasol dishwasher tablets (these work great!!) on sale for 99 cents, so I bought 12 of them, and stored them under my bed. These should last me one year. Be creative about pantry space. I also have a case of tomatoes (3 for $1.00) under my bed, trash bags, ketchup, etc.

Once you are stocked up, shopping is quick, and not as much a drudgery. I can be in and out in 15 minutes with a good list. If there is nothing on sale I want, I just take a frozen milk out of the freezer, and we are set for the week, no need to go to the store.

I know this is just one aspect of your question, but one step at a time!

Cheryl D

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Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 12:38:23 +0900
From: Richard Thornhill 
Message-Id: <35A1982F.5A72@tk.chugai-pharm.co.jp>
References: <199807061518.LAA15914@cpcug.org> <199807070130.VAA00862@cpcug.org>
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.apc.org

Carol Bruce wrote:

> So think about replacing your
> lawn with something that doesn't need mowing--preferably not concrete!

Richard

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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:42:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Gray 
Message-Id: <199807071242.FAA07052@igc6.igc.org>
Subject: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.org

Whatever you do, try to make it less damaging to the environment, less oriented toward piling up possessions, more oriented toward community.

Tom
http://www.econet.org/frugal

"In interviews after the bombing, she recounted how she had  an 
'environmental epiphany' one day while working.  Admiring a 
piece of knot-free siding for a house, she said, she wondered 
aloud whether the wood was old-growth redwood.  Her supervisor 
blithely said it was from a redwood about 1,000 years old.

"'A light bulb went on: we are cutting down old-growth forests to
make yuppie houses,' she said.  'I became obsessed with the
forests.'"--Obituary of Judi Bari, 1949-1997, 
anti-redwood-logging activist, by Jesse McKinley in "The New 
York Times"

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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:49:41 EDT
From: PRichter1@aol.com
Message-ID: <5800db17.35a21966@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.org

Harry wrote,
> 
>  There is this Zen notion of being totally in 'the present'---and when
>  one is totally in 'the present' then even simple things are
>  satisfying---I have actually experienced this from time to time (not
>  this past week).
>  

I want to share my experiences with simple living/frugality. I came out of seminary a few years ago very heavily burdened by student loan debt. And I was clueless about finances, though I had been a single mom for a number of years. If I got by, it was ok. I liked not having to think about finances. I had no savings and all this debt. The student loan folks were happy to give me an 18 month forbearance, but interest accumulated and I had not done my self employment taxes right, and all of these debts came due at once. (And I found the IRS much easier to deal with than the student loan folks).

I will delete the anguishing story. I found my way into simplicity not so much voluntarily, but it became an important journey for me. I began to track every penny I spent and read YMOYL. It was so hard for me to track my expenses. I can't tell you how much time it spent. All the while facing years and years of paying back this enormous debt load (in other words, I would not see a growing savings for quite some time).

It is now less than a couple of years later. Tracking expenses is a way of being now. I have found all kinds of ways to cut corners financially, and I have paid a whopping $11,000 towards my debt just since September (and I have a son in college, and contribute to that, too). They say that miracles can happen when one applies the necessary steps like tracking -- I was skeptical at first, but I am living proof of this. As a minister, my salary is not great. I have done a few weddings here for which I get paid extra. But I can now truly see the light. I still have a long way to go with my debt, but I may be able to see my way clear by the new year of 2000. That is so close! Oh, and I now have a modest cushion, too.

I share this story because I once hated every minute I spent tracking expenses. It was just too painful. I felt deprived being frugal. But my life has changed so enormously in the past couple of years that I would, could, never go back. I am much more ecologically aware and I am living my values in a much more congruent way. I am less anxious and more present to what life presents to me. My life is more simple. And much richer. I truly do try to discern needs from wants. And I still have a long way to go (simple living, I have found, is like peeling an onion).

Best wishes, Priscilla

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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:20:05 -0400
From: Mike Warren 
In-Reply-To: <199807061518.LAA15914@cpcug.org>
Message-Id: 
References: <35A0A668.3290CDD6@tcimet.net>
Subject: re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.apc.org

At 11:17 AM -0400 7/6/1998, Carol Bruce wrote:
>Mike and Jeff, or anyone else
>
>Can I ask what things you are thinking of as "drudgery?" I got the
>four grocery stores example--I don't do that myself, since I shop
>exclusively at the local food co-op and farmers' market.

Another example of drudgery is keeping records for the sake of keeping records. At this point in my life I have the time for keeping detailed records, I've developed a system and I enjoy the process. But, if schedule is so busy you have a hard time getting from point A to B on time, record-keeping could be a drudgery. Hmmmm, on the other hand, if life is so complicated you can't take stock of your expenses, you need to reconsider a few things

I'll have to give this some more thought, Carol.

---
Mike Warren               
Sine Nomine Farm          
Tobaccoville, NC

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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:36:19 -0400
From: Mike Warren 
In-Reply-To: <199807071242.FAA07052@igc6.igc.org>
Message-Id: 
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.org

At 8:42 AM -0400 7/7/1998, Tom Gray wrote:
>My suggestion would be to start with what doesn't feel like drudgery
>and get that under your belt first, then look around for other
>opportunities.  Usually there are alternatives that are not too
>taxing.

It also helps to couple savings with other positive benefits. For example, if you biked or walked to accomplish some shopping chores, you'd save on gas as well as improve your health. This also has the tertiary effect of forcing you to buy less -- there's just so much you can carry on a bike!

>We used to garden, for example, but it's a lot of work
>and one year, the deer got most of the veggies.  So now we su*bscribe
>to a local CSA (community-supported agriculture) plan and get our
>vegetables from a local farm.

This triggered memory of a couple of personal pound-foolish drudgeries:

- stopping at town hall to pay power and phone bills in order to save postage.
- making our own soap.
- making our own tomato paste.

The latter was a goal and for a couple of years. But it was more trouble than it was worth. Instead we learned to reduce a small amount of our canned tomato sauce when we "needed" tomato paste. Now, if a recipe calls for paste I usually leave it out or buy some, not expensive at 30 cents a can.

---
Mike Warren               
Sine Nomine Farm          
Tobaccoville, NC

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Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 08:39:10 -0700
From: "Devito, Debra {~Palo Alto}" 
Message-id: <39C89E38D5AED111A50C0000F80197880A3642@rplmsem1e.pal.roche.com>
Subject: RE: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: 'PRichter1@aol.com' , positive-futures@igc.org

Peace to you all,
Debra

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	PRichter1@aol.com [SMTP:PRichter1@aol.com]
> Sent:	Tuesday, July 07, 1998 5:50 AM  ...

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Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 12:52:12 -0700
From: Kelly Carpenter 
Message-ID: <35A27C6B.E63E2189@mediaone.net>
References: <199807061518.LAA15914@cpcug.org> <199807070130.VAA00862@cpcug.org> <35A1982F.5A72@tk.chugai-pharm.co.jp>
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: Richard Thornhill 

> Carol Bruce wrote:
> > So think about replacing your
> > lawn with something that doesn't need mowing--preferably not concrete!
>
At 12:38 7/07/98 +0900, Richard Thornhill wrote:
> Why replace it with anything?  Why not just leave it to do what it wants?
> (assuming you don't want the space for growing fruit and veg).
>
> Richard

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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:59:17 -0700
From: Cecile Mills 
In-Reply-To: <199807071242.FAA07052@igc6.igc.org>
Message-Id: 
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.org

Tom Gray  wrote:

>So now we su*bscribe
>to a local CSA (community-supported agriculture) plan and get our
>vegetables from a local farm.

You deal with a human who probably picked those green beans so sweet and delicious you both start nibbling them raw.

You support directly with money a farmer who in turn supports a healthy community (no poisons into the air, the water, or employees and other humans who touch or consume the food).

If you cannot find a CSA near you, email me. I am investigating the options of using FEDEX or some such service to ship the weekly box of produce and flowers--they currently ship many large corporations' vegetables and flowers from my ag area--why not the CSA's production also?

I've included the URL of a search I did on Community Supported Agriculture below.

http://altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=q&user=ns&kl=XX&q=%22Community+Supported+Agriculture%22&search=Search

And also a CSA I belonged to:

http://zzyx.ucsc.edu/casfs/CSA.html

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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:25:34 EDT
From: SMcfarla@aol.com
Message-ID: <7efb199a.35a2762f@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: kellyc@mediaone.net, thornhill@tk.chugai-pharm.co.jp

In a message dated 98-07-07 15:15:52 EDT, kellyc@mediaone.net writes:

<<  In South Florida (and most U.S. cities I
 suspect), it is against the law to just let the lawn go.  Here if the grass
 is more than 8 inches high, a code officer may write you a ticket (similar to
 a traffic ticket) or refer you to the code enforcement board.
>>

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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:20:43 -0700
From: Cecile Mills 
In-Reply-To: 
Message-Id: 
References: <199807071242.FAA07052@igc6.igc.org>
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.org

Mike Warren  wrote:

>- making our own tomato paste.
>
>The latter was a goal and for a couple of years.   But it was more trouble
>than it was worth.  Instead we learned to reduce a small amount of our
>canned tomato sauce when we "needed" tomato paste.  Now, if a recipe calls
>for paste I usually leave it out or buy some, not expensive at 30 cents a
>can.

A friend just puts cheesecloth out on her bushes and shrubs to dry vegetables.

These dried tomatoes make the BEST sauce, and quickly, too. It tastes truly wonderful, like a memory of that summer day, standing there, munching on a tomato!

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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:51:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: gthomas@acad.suffolk.edu
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: Cecile Mills 
cc: positive-futures@igc.org

> Tom Gray  wrote:
> 
> >So now we su*bscribe
> >to a local CSA (community-supported agriculture) plan and get our
> >vegetables from a local farm.

On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, Cecile Mills wrote:

> Tom is right-- the local CSA is a wonderful way to get fresh,(usually)
> organic food. It sets up a totally new economic paradigm for the '90s that
> harkens back to a time before middlemen and corporate control.
> 

I was really just curious about CSAs since I already shop at the local co-op and grow my own veggies. Anyway, it turns out the CSAs here supply the co-op so it didn't make sense for me to buy a share that I had to drive out of the city to pick up 'cause I was getting their stuff from my co-op anyway.

Just wanted to share the info.

Glynys
Beantown

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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:26:49 -0700
From: Cecile Mills 
In-Reply-To: 
Message-Id: 
References: 
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.org

Glynys  wrote:

>I was really just curious about CSAs since I already shop at the local
>co-op and grow my own veggies.  Anyway, it turns out the CSAs here supply
>the co-op so it didn't make sense for me to buy a share that I had to 
>drive out of the city to pick up 'cause I was getting their stuff from my 
>co-op anyway.

Some CSAs deliver boxes of produce to central locations--ask yours if they've considered that service. Keep in mind that the food bought directly from the farmer get the most money directly to the farmer.

Ask the farmer how you can participate best in sustaining the farm -- purchasing sometimes through the CSA and buying from the co-op off-season might be one way to so it. They may prefer if you purchase from the store--that will create a more stable market for their produce.

By taking the step to purchase locally grown seasonal food, you're helping local farmers a lot.

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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:42:08 -0700
From: "Jan Gordon" 
Message-ID: <004d01bdaa7e$9668e560$27e096d1@jan>
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: 

>>I was really just curious about CSAs since I already shop at the local
>>co-op and grow my own veggies.  Anyway, it turns out the CSAs here supply
>>the co-op so it didn't make sense for me to buy a share that I had to 
>>drive out of the city to pick up 'cause I was getting their stuff from my 
>>co-op anyway.
>

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Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 08:32:01 -0700
From: "Devito, Debra {~Palo Alto}" 
Message-id: <39C89E38D5AED111A50C0000F80197880A364D@rplmsem1e.pal.roche.com>
Subject: RE: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: "'Cecile Mills'" , positive-futures@igc.org

Peace,
Debra

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Cecile Mills [SMTP:seaseal@got.net]
> Sent:	Tuesday, July 07, 1998 2:21 PM

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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:25:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: gthomas@acad.suffolk.edu
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: Cecile Mills 
cc: positive-futures@igc.org

On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Cecile Mills wrote:

> Ask the farmer how you can participate best in sustaining the
> farm--purchasing sometimes through the CSA and buying from the coop
> off-season might be one way to so it. They may prefer if you purchase > from the store--that will create a more stable market for their produce.

> 
> By taking the step to purchase locally grown seasonal food, you're > helping local farmers a lot.

Glynys
Boston

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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:16:54 -0700
From: Susan Masse 
Message-ID: <01BDAA83.72D76B80.smasse@advcorp.com>
Subject: RE: Simple vs. Frugal Living/Food Drying: LONG
To: "'positive-futures@igc.org'" 

On Wednesday, July 08, 1998 10:30 AM, Devito, Debra {~Palo Alto} wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Devito, Debra {~Palo Alto} [SMTP:DEBRA.DEVITO@Roche.COM]
>Sent:	Wednesday, July 08, 1998 8:32 AM
>
>Cecile,
>That sounds wonderful! Unfortunately I don't have a dryer, and I .. would
>love to know how to do this without the electric equipment. Please share.
>
>Peace,
>Debra

In Peace

Sue

The greatest savings come from drying fruits that are home grown or obtained at a reasonable price. Figs, peaches, apples, pears, mango, guava and litchis are among those fruits easiest to dry. When it comes to saving food otherwise wasted and contributing to family nutritional needs, drying food is well worth the effort. Even the most expensive method of drying food in a home oven costs only a few cents in electricity (estimated at about 3 to 4 cents an oven load), so the original cost of the food becomes a determining factor.

A number of ingenious ways have been devised for drying small amounts of food at home. Some utilize solar heat alone, while others combine solar heat with electrical energy. However accomplished, good sources of low heat and moving air are needed. Here are a few present day innovations.

Place trays of food to be dried in the back of a hatchback car on a sunny day. Open the hatchback enough to let air circulate and position the car so that the sun passes through the glass at an angle. Close down the door at night or take the food inside to complete the drying process in the oven.

To make an inexpensive dryer at home, line a heavy cardboard box with foil to reflect heat up. Suspend a 60-watt electric light in the box and a dark tray on top to absorb the heat. Place in sunlight during the day and complete drying indoors if necessary.

A convection portable oven is excellent for drying foods. Special racks may be ordered from the company for this purpose. The 1400-watt oven uses very little electricity, and the fan distributes heat evenly.

The microwave oven can be used for drying, also. Some experimentation with timing is necessary. One apple was found to require 18 minutes at a low setting. To use an electric oven for drying, place a 100 watt bulb in the oven for warmth. Crack the oven door for circulation of air.

Electric warming trays are very economical, using about 175-225 watts. Put the warming tray in a sunny spot, such as on a screened porch. Solar heat and breezes dry food from the top, while the warming tray, set at low heat, dries from the bottom. Paper towels or a cotton cloth placed on the tray under the food will absorb moisture from the food and hasten the drying process. The ultimate in innovation involves programming the warming tray with a timer to turn off at a specified number of hours. This is a great convenience. The children's high energy snack is ready for them on a tray when they come home from school.

Those who wish to dehydrate food on a larger scale can buy or build a special oven for this purpose. Small heaters or a hot plate can be used as a heat source. A fan is helpful (although not essential) for air movement.

In general, dried vegetables are practical for seasonings, soups and stews, but may not be needed in Florida as much as in northern states, because of the long growing season. Anyone who uses dried herbs or vegetables can quickly see the savings in growing and drying enough for year around convenience.

Many home-dehydrated foods have not been heated hot enough or long enough to kill all the potential insect infestation. This can be accomplished by heating it in a 175 degrees F (79 degrees C) oven for 15 minutes, and cooling and storing it in small containers. Another method of killing any insect infestation in dried foods is to put them in a freezer for one week.

Dehydration reduces the bulk, cutting down on storage space. Darkness protects food color and cold temperature protects the nutrients, so a dark cool storage space is advisable. If in doubt as to whether the food is dry enough to keep at room temperature, refrigerate or freeze it.

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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:09:15 -0700
From: Cecile Mills 
In-Reply-To: 
 <39C89E38D5AED111A50C0000F80197880A364D@rplmsem1e.pal.roche.com>
Message-Id: 
Subject: RE: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.org

"Devito, Debra {~Palo Alto}"  wrote:

>                                    I don't have a dryer, and I don't
>grow my own tomatoes. I do however, purchase organic produce and would
>love to know how to do this without the electric equipment. Please
>share.

Anyone, not just growers, can take advantage of summer surpluses to acquire zucchini, tomatoes, corn, and other veggies found at Farmer's Markets and roadside stands. I've made some great *soup mixes* with dried and then frozen mixtures of whatever is cheap that week--tomatoes, carrots, onions,beans, and squash all go together into a baggie with blanched kale, basil, and fennel for freezing (drying them saves tons of space). Then, when I'm ready for some soup, I heat water, add the veggies and lastly some miso and sesame oil. Yum.

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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:36:02 -0700
From: Cecile Mills 
In-Reply-To: 
Message-Id: 
References: 
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: positive-futures@igc.org

gthomas@acad.suffolk.edu wrote:

>they assure me they use not pesticides but pest management
>methods that involved some acronym I've forgotten.  Anyway, the veggies
>are more expensive, but SOOOO good.

The test for me is my next question, "Oh, then when will you be getting your organic certification?" -- and their answer will let you know. That organic certification gets them a much better price for their goods. If they truly don't use chemical pesticides, they'll be transitioning to organic -- otherwise they may be stretching the truth to make a sale.

Encourage farmers who are thinking about changing to kick the *habit* of chemical pesticides. The best types of encouragement are often dollars--you can tell them you are not now purchasing from them because of your ability to get pesticide-free food elsewhere for your self and your family/household but you will patronize them when they have their certification or even their transitional status.

Purchasing certified organic produce whenever possible is a good way to support your own health as well as that of your community.

>I had to buy peas, because, alas, my
>best gardening efforts have never yielded more than one or two peas a
>season in my community garden.

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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 14:11:49 -0700
From: Diane Fitzsimmons 
Message-ID: <35A53214.B31@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: ULS Report (and beyond)
To: positive-futures@igc.org

John pointed out that one is not in the recycling-paper loop unless one is purchasing recycled paper products. In my community, recycled paper products (towels, napkins, toilet paper) cost more than that made of new paper. This demonstrates something we've talked about before -- sometimes simplicity clashes with frugality. On the one hand we want to reduce our expenses; on the other, we want to decrease our environmental impact.

John also reminded me that the ULS Report has also shown that sometimes recycling uses more energy than using another type of product (or doing without altogether).

Our family uses cloth instead of paper napkins. I'm interested in switching to recycled toilet paper (doesn't that conjure up hideous images? :^) ), so I'll have to do more checking on the resources it takes to recycle paper.

We never buy paper towels; a friend gives us paper towel roll ends (from bathroom dispensers) thrown away at work. But, of course, I'd like to cut that out as much as possible. After our discussion a few weeks ago on ways to cut utensil/plate trash at public events, I began to take another look at the disposibles around the house and wonder what people did before they existed.

Most answers are obvious, but here is one I couldn't figure out. I'm wondering if any old-timers out there can fill me in: How did cooks drain grease from fried food? Did they just use tea towels or some such? Or did everyone just eat it as is?

Thanks, Diane

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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:13:13 -0600
From: "R C Herman" 
Message-ID: <006801bdac1b$1c526be0$42f8a8ce@rherman>
Subject: Re: ULS Report (and beyond)
To: "Positive Futures" 

-----Original Message-----
From: Gus 
To: positive-futures@igc.org 
Date: Friday, July 10, 1998 4:15 AM

>This all gets very complicated doesn't it.
>
>I have allergies and a very fragile immune system.  I use paper towels exclusively
>because of there is far less risk of bacteria being spread.
>
>In regards to depleting the earth's resources, what about the resources squandered
>if I get wind up back in the hospital again. The trade off in using up resources
>by being in the hospital and using a few paper towels seems to lean heavily
>in favor of using a few paper towels.

I say, let's ten of us agree to not use paper towels, let Gus have his, and on balance the world will be a better place. What say the rest of you folks?

Bob Herman

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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:31:36 -0700
From: "Arnie P. Anfinson" 
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980711144659.0073ea08@pop.seanet.com>
Subject: RE: Simple vs. Frugal Living
To: "Devito, Debra {~Palo Alto}" ,
        "'Cecile Mills'" 

At 10:05 AM 7/9/98 -0700, Devito, Debra {~Palo Alto} wrote:
>Thanks Cecile. I'll do some research on that and see what I find. Your
>advise on drying to save space is great. Storage space is definitely an
>issue with me.

Good luck;

Arnie (in not so sunny Seattle!)

This is: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6783/EnjoyngFrugl.html